24,410 – a cheeky puzzle?

Author   petebiddlecombePosted on Categories Daily Cryptic
Solving time: 20:42

I’m starting to type this just before 12, and have read the comments made so far. Solved without understanding full wordplay: 12, 27, 7, 22 – solving by the seat of my pants, you might say. A very difficult puzzle but with plenty to enjoy for those who persevered.

Across
1 DE-PICT – the Picts, although in Scotland, were not necessarily Scots
4 FLIP=trurn over, FLOP = (fail or failure) = “bomb”
10 MY ST(o)ICISM – “loveless” cheekily indicating the removal of O
11 RAT(i)ON – I made life difficult for myself with a hasty punt on RUN IN – a warning that the definition and pattern of word lengths isn’t always enough
12 COST = price, AD = promotion, ELSOL = (sell, O(ld))*, indicated by “tours”. The “in” linkword often seen between the def and wordplay is moved to the front, hiding the def. a bit.
14 UFO – fiendish cryptic def which seems to be talking about this kind of crossword – my last answer after I’d fixed up 11A and then got 7. Nothing in the surface reading survives in the cryptic reading – “Object” changes from verb to noun, “to” departs from the phrase “object to” and adopts another meaning, and “going over people’s heads” changes from a metaphorical meaning to a literal one.
15 E(N = some number)VE,LOP
17 M.O.(MEN)T. – very nice concise clue (“Test boxes people tick”)
19 ELDERS – reverse hidden in “toS RED LEaves”
21 BRIGADE – RIG = doctor, in BADE = ordered
23 the one I’m leaving out
24 YORK MINSTER = (in Kerry most)*
26 B = “successor to a”, LAKE=mere
27 A(MUG = cup)S, GAME = willing = “up for it” – the enclosing AS is “like”. This is the only surface so far that doesn’t quite work for me.
29 B=black (A,K = cards) ELITE = cream
30 ARGYLE = “our guile” = craft we have – an outrageous homophone relying on the pronunciation that makes “our souls” such a dangerous pair of words in church services. Now that I’ve seen both derriere and bum elsewhere in the puzzle, I’m wondering if I was intended to think of this as part of a cheeky theme, but probably not (I can’t see anything else and suspect something innocent like a SEAT could easily have been included).
 
Down
1 DAMOCLES = (lad comes)* – follow the link if “dangerously hung over” means nothing to you
2 POSES = presents (e.g. a question) – final letters (= tips) of words in clue
3 C.=roughly, HI=greeting – simple construction but nicely done
5 LUMPS = “puts up with” as in “Likes it or lumps it”,UM = “I hesitate to say”
6 PAR = standard, ALYMPIAN = (main play)* –
7 L,I,THU(s) = “so short”,AN(d) I(n) A(n) –
8 PIN=leg,I,ON=leg
9 LINE = band (explained in comments),UP = at university (old Brit. colloq.)
13 ALL VERY WELL – 2 defs, “qualifier” from phrases like “That’s all very well, but ….”
16 V(ery) I(nteresting),L(LAP)ARK – LAP = “the place to do erotic dance” – this is the second slightly weak surface for me – erotic dancing at any football stadium seems unlikely. I wonder if the clue started off with a more veiled definition but was edited for fairness.
18 DERRIERE = behind – from “(London)derry Air” – a song known all over the world.
20 SERVANT – S=singular, RV = bible (Revised Version) in neat*
21 BUM = tramp, PUP = young animal – hike = bump up = raise (as of prices).
22 HUBBUB = clamour – UB = “unemployment benefit initially”, and this replaces the Y=year in HUBBY = spouse. Hard to parse with two UB’s, but clear in the end. The “initially” is pretty unnecessary for UK solvers, with UB40 and similar govt. forms all having UB for “unemployment benefit”.
25 TEARY = upset – R.A. in YET, all reversed
28 S(t)IR – the T being “out finally”, and STIR being “jail”

51 comments on “24,410 – a cheeky puzzle?”

  1. 48 min, but needed assistance for half a dozen. Something of a mid-week stinker methinks. Made no progress at all until 29 ac BAKELITE. 75% done in 25 min, and then to the aids. Last in MYSTICISM (my st(o)icism – ow!). In retrospect, some cracking clues, I’m just glad I haven’t volunteeded as a blogger, as this one would have had me in panic mode. COD: DERRIERE. Not that hard, but raised a smile.
  2. Good puzzle. Last in 18dn due largely to 30ac which seems unfair, as the clue gives no help on which alternative spelling is required. (OED gives only ARGYLL for the pattern, by the way.) It’s also not a homophone to my ears.
    1. That’s interesting, anonymous, because the Shorter OED has both with ARGYLE as the first entry.

      The Concise Oxford and Collins both have only ARGYLE so this does seem to be the preferred spelling for the knitwear.

      Chambers has both spellings too (ARGYLE first) but the garment is only the secondary definition, the first being “a vessel for containing gravy and keeping it hot”.

      1. Just out of interest, In the OED, after the gravy boat (which is either ARGYLE or ARGYLL) there is a June 2006 draft addition:

        argyll, n.

        A pattern (esp. on fabric) consisting of diamond shapes of various colours overlaid with contrasting diagonal stripes, based on the tartan of the Argyll branch of the Campbell clan of Scotland; (also) a garment bearing this pattern. Freq. attrib.

        It’s odd that the entry appears to be so recent, as the citations which follow it date back to 1890.

        K

    1. Yes, no problem. A band can be a line (in rock for example), and a line up can be synonymous with a play bill.
  4. An absolute gem of a puzzle. About an hour and 15 minutes without aids, but also unsure of LINE-UP, which was my entry for 9D. I wouldn’t know where to start for a COD. This setter was on a very devious and entertaining cerebral level today. I loved DERRIERE as well, but also BLAKE, DAMOCLES, POSES, LITHUANIAN, BRIGADE and MYSTICISM; all are wonderful. Not to mention 2 more I entered but that I’m still not quite sure of: VILLA PARK (is there such a stadium?) and ARGYLE as ‘wooly design’. I guess this is why we do these puzzles – this was a whole lotta fun. Anyone under 15 minutes for this gets a special commendation. Regards to all, especially to the setter: Thank you.
    1. Yes Kevin. Home to Aston Villa – Birmingham based football club (Aston is a part of Birmingham in the same way Chelsea and Tottenham are areas of London)
  6. I agree with the comments so far that this was a cracker of a puzzle and I think it might have been a prime candidate for the web-chat on Friday as it’s packed full of inventiveness as well as regular tricks of the trade. Still, we shall see what they actually have in store for us on my next blogging day.

    I knew I was in for trouble today because there are so many answers consisting of more than one word – the clues I like to look at first because I often find them the easiest to solve – yet I took a full five minutes to solve even one of them. And I had no idea about any of the 3-letter words either – another bad sign.

    Having eventually got started with FLIP-FLOP I worked steadily through and managed to complete it in exactly an hour without resort to aids. I then spent another ten minutes working out the wordplay in MYSTICISM, LITHUANIA and SIR and trying to explain HUBBUB which I am still not completely happy with though I understand what’s going on in it.

  7. Something told me to get up early this morning.
    Cavalry summoned early here but still took me 3 hours or more. Since there isn’t a single word in it that I don’t know I spent some time trying to figure why I found it so difficult, limitations aside. I think it is the sheer inventiveness of the definitions, so even if one is on the right lines with the parsing, getting the answer remains hard work. Just 3 of many examples: bomb for FLOP, ring for ENVELOP, bill for LINE-UP.
    This puzzle exposed my cerebral deficiencies and my inexperience as a solver, but finishing at all, even with aids, shows boundless determination if nothing else.
    So many terrific clues: BLAKE (one of only 2 in on first reading – UNA being the other), MYSTICISM, RAT ON, FLIP FLOP, and on and on.
    Awesome.
  8. I was going along quite well until reaching the SE corner. Eventually figured out ARGYLL, but then had no chance with DERRIERE. I didn’t know the ARGYLE alternative spelling, though I suppose I should have figured it out. Very enjoyable puzzle, nonetheless.

    Tom B.

  9. An excellent puzzle and possibly a candidate to be included in the memories bank. On top of everything else DERRIERE is a laugh out loud moment (Anax possibly). I agree ARGYLE is a weakness.
  10. An excellent puzzle indeed, full of invention and wit, not to mention the brand of humour. I think I must have mistimed myself, because I reckoned on 35 minutes. I very much liked MYSTICISM, BRIGADE & LITHUANIA but COD to DERRIERE, even though I got it straight away (What was I saying about the brand of humour?).
  11. This was very enjoyable but only for masochists. Looking back, I can’t believe I got some of the answers, such as brigade and derriere. Last in was line-up, faute de mieux.

    I remember an interview with Jean Metcalfe, the presenter of Family Favourites, a few years ago. She said two of the most popular requests were for the London Derriere and Llangollen Dreamer.

  12. Agreed, an excellent puzzle with many tough clues. I think I failed to get an across clue until I got to 26. Downs proved easier to make headway. It took me an hour to finish. DERRIERE came easily as we’ve seen something like it before. I loved 10 across, cryptically simple, but effective. Re jackkt’s query, I think 22 works satisfactorily if you mentally insert punctuation after ‘spouse’ and read ‘year’s’ as ‘year is’. The weakness of ARGYLE is less the ambiguity of the spelling (which is resolved by 18) but the assumed phonetic equivalence of AR and OUR, which doesn’t convince me.
    1. Thanks, Dyste. I got there just before reading your message.

      Having read PB’s less explicit comment on this clue and finding he was satisfied it was ok I was encouraged to look at it again with new eyes so to speak, and I immediately spotted “is” as a the substitution indicator I had been missing earlier this morning. I’ve been caught out by ‘s so many times in the past I really ought to expect any possible interpretation by now.

  13. Lovely puzzle, 30 minutes. The use of devices such as shelters and sandwiches makes me suspect the hand of a friend of TFTT.

    Like jack I can’t see exactly how the y of hubby is dropped in 22d. Lots of great clues but big ticks for flip flop, Blake and bakelite.

    I had derriere before argyle so I had no problens with the spelling of the latter and had been thinking about Plymouth Argyle earlier in the day anyway (something about Plymouth fans armed only with chnuky sweaters having to repel an attack by Accrington fans armed with stanley knives. Don’t ask.)

  14. 39 minutes. Excellent puzzle. I was making steady progress but ground to a halt after about 20 minutes on last 5 clues 7,14,18, 21 and 30. Eventually cracked DERRIERE and the rest came slowly. COD? Too many to choose from – maybe 22.
  15. Stupid moment here, but even with Peters explanation I still dont understand UFO. I put it in from the straight def, but what is the cryptic part?
    1. In a sense, the “cryptic part” is the possibility of reading the straight def in the way the setter intended. In a cryptic definition clue, once you’ve read the definition correctly, that’s all there is – there is no wordplay / subsidiary indication / “cryptic part” as you meant it.

      Edited at 2009-12-16 07:58 pm (UTC)

  16. I’ve waited for the blog to appear because I wanted to verify some of my understanding of this superb puzzle. 40 minutes of real pleasure and a constant challenge.

    I think MYSTICISM is really excellent and UFO (one I wasn’t totally sure about but couldn’t think of anything else) is outstanding. I don’t normally go a bundle on cryptic definitions but this one is in a class of its own.

    Thank you setter – I’m still laughing at DERRIERE.

  17. Agree with all that Jimbo and others have said. Top-notch cracker of a puzzle. I had the unsettling experience of failing to come up with a single solution either across or down on first read-through. The nightmare of a first-ever complete blank loomed for some panic-stricken moments. Then PARALYMPIAN fell, and after that it was reasonably steady progress. Given the difficulty of the puzzle, I was pleased to finish in 55 mins or so, bar 18dn. Nothing fitted the mix of letters and remaining blanks. Then, applying the Peter B rule that if nothing fits one of the cross-checking solutions must be wrong, the thought occurred that ARGYLE might be an alternative spelling to ARGYLL, my initial entry. A quick check in Chambers confirmed that both spellings were possible, and the cheeky DERRIERE suggested itself soon afterwards. Being partial to wacky homophones, I didn’t mind the ARGYLE/our guile pun, though, I concede, it was a bit of a stretch.
  19. 28:22 .. Gosh! Looks like I picked the right day to return to solving – a humdinger of a crossword. Personally, I love ARGYLE, and thank you, Peter for making me splutter coffee with your ecclesiastical adjunct. You may owe me for a new keyboard.
    1. Hello stranger. Welcome back from wherever you’ve been. I, for one, have missed my daily dose of your thoughts.
    2. Good to see you back Sotira – far too few ladies contributing to the blog and missed your humour.
      1. Why, thank you, chaps. I was organising a coup in a minor African republic (it all went horribly wrong when the SatNav mistook ‘Justice ministry’ for ‘Jesuit monastery’).

        I may be one of the ‘Biddlecombe Irregulars’ for a while, but I shan’t desert.

        1. Chalk up another welcome back. Next time you’re passing this way, there are about 4 keyboards of various vintages in our attic.
          1. Yet another welcome home from one of your legion of admirers. Nice to have you back where you belong, as the song, I think, has it.
  20. I had ‘ring up’ at 9 down and was certain it was correct band=ring seemed far more reasonable than ‘line up’ and was annoyed when it became obvious that this was not so. otherwise okay took just under an hour chris
    1. An unfortunate near miss – “ring up” = “record on a cash register” and bill = charge (a sum of money) are not quite the same thing. Unless we hear about the precise connection I haven’t found yet, you might say the same about band and line in the very same clue.

      If you can see near-defs like this, they’re probably best left as possibles jotted next to the clue until you’ve got enough checking letters to be sure (i.e. all of them in words this long).

  22. Could not finish this last night, gave up until the morning with 18, 30, 10 and 9 unfilled. At sunup, saw 18 first and then 10, that gave me the rest. Nice challenge… excellent clueing of VILLA PARK let me get it without knowing the place (if all setters clued proper names with this clarity I’d be a very happy chappy).
  23. Thoroughly enjoyed this puzzle, completed in just over the hour. Must rank highly as a contender for “Memories”.

    MYSTICISM, DERRIERE……Brilliant!

    JsmesM

  24. Thanks to you both. I had actually heard of Aston Villa but thought it was a place, not a sports club.
  25. Had to find a mo to join you today, a super puzzle that has me agreeing with pretty well all of the above. Bakelite first in – all that reading, no writing, but inside 40 mins so rather pleased now I have seen the comments. Glad I did not have to share this with granddaughter as slow to see some plays but worked it all out in the end. Loved derriere, got the right argyle first off, top half went easier after Damocles started the downs moving. By the way jimbo, as you may have picked up from some of my comments, I am one of the (are we so few?) girls.
    1. Well, I suspected but one has to be so careful these days in what one says. Unfortunately ladies have always been under represented as long as I’ve been contributing here (about two and a half years) so you are very welcome.
  26. Would some kind person please explain ufo to me-I’m afraid I don’t follow the explanation. Thanks
    1. Have you read the report and then the comment from “fathippy” and my reply? I’m not sure what else to add.
  28. Had to go to the slang dictionary for RAT ON and still don’t get 17a MOMENT for the life of me. Londonderry Air always amused me as a young boy.(60+ years ago)
    My wife and I have just survived the H1N1 flu here in Toronto. Got the vaccine afterwards on recommendation of the family doctor as there’s another wave it expected in January. This just to be extra safe seeing as there was no swabbing done but all symptoms pointed to the real thing. Please get the vaccine…you don’t want this. Trust me.
    Good reading here http://scienceblogs.com/effectmeasure/
  29. only just got around to commenting as I was late looking at this Xword last night, and even later finishing it! Pleased it was seen as generally difficult, esp. the SE. Not keen on The last one in, Argyle, but the penultimate one in, Derriere, more than made up for it..
  30. Coming to this a day late but felt I had to comment on Villa Park and lap dancing.

    Aston Villa have a very tall forward called John Carew and the Villa fans chant:

    “John Carew, Carew; He’s bigger than me and you, He’s going to score one or two, John Carew, Carew.”

    Until he went to a lap dancing club last season and was dropped from the team for a while by manager Martin O’Neill. The chant changed to:

    “Jonn Carew, Carew; He’s bigger than me and you, He’s had a lap dance or two, John Carew, Carew.”

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