Times 25147 – but did 19 16 the wheel?

Author   glhPosted on Categories Daily Cryptic
Solving time : 17:53 on a printout – but I was still feeling a little uneasy about two of the answers, so I went to the Crossword Club and typed them in carefully – it came back at a correct puzzle, so woohoo! I have mixed feelings about this one – it’s a tricky crossword, but there’s four names, a country a nationality, an island… that’s a lot of capitalization!

However in the end everything makes sense except 26 down, but it’s going to be a tough time looking for one to leave out, there’s lots of cryptic tricks going on.

Away we go!

Across
1 LAPLANDER: one that lands in the lap has fallen easily
6 WIDOW: WINDOW(opportunity) without the N and a crafty definition
9 COTERIE: (EROTIC)* then E from the heart of dukEdom. Another well-hidden definition
10 DISGUST: that’s G(grand) U(posh) ST(thoroughfar) after the DIS
11 SEE: hooly dooly – that’s a quadruple definition
12 CAESARS,A,LAD
14 EMBODY: MB then OD in E(drug),Y
15 CORAL SEA: (RACE,ALSO)*
17 HOME BREW: MO reversed in HEBREW
19 EDISON: NO SIDE (the end of a rugby match) reversed
22 U,PA,GAINS,TIT
23 OOH: alternating letters in dOrOtHy
25 TIMBALE: LAB(party) reversed in TIME – got this from the wordplay
27 FEAR,GAL: Only got this one by thinking of the one-hit wonder from the mid-80s
28 let’s leave this one out from the acrosses
29 TO A DEGREE: TOAD,EG(say),RE(on),E(tip of tonguE)
 
Down
1 LOCUS(t): I liked “Leggy stripper” for LOCUST
2 POT HERB: POTHER(fuss), then B(second-rate)
3 ABRACADABRA: I think this is C,ADA in A,BRA,BRA but I don’t see where the second BRA comes from. Is she wearing two?
4 DIESEL: DIES(drops) then (f)EL(l)
5 RED BARON: RED(wine) then O in BARN(store)
6 let’s omit this from the downs
7 DOUGLAS: UGL(y) in DO AS
8 WITHDRAWN: DR in WITH AWN(having beard)
13 STAND AT EAST: or STAND A TEASE
14 EXHAUSTED: H in (TAXES,DUE)*
16 REINVENT: REIN(lead), VENT(pipe) and another nice definition
18 MYANMAR: M(maiden) then (MAN,RAY)* – the country formally known as Burma
20 SLOGGER: double definition
21 STAFFA: reversed first letters of Away From Fire As The Smoke
24 HALVE: H then AL(i)VE
26 ASS: from definition, but I’m not sure what it’s half of – ASSAIL maybe? Edit: ASSIST for “pitch in” – see comments

70 comments on “Times 25147 – but did 19 16 the wheel?”

  1. … but a good part of the morning. Sorry I can’t help with the other half of ASS??? or ???ASS at 26dn. And equally perplexed by the two BRAs: owning, perhaps, rather than wearing? Not at all helped by so many proper nouns and trying to justify CAESARS = “Classics masters”. Not to mention missing the golfing reference at 24dn. COD has to go to 21dn, STAFFA, for a very deceptive surface.
  2. Glad to help – and now not anonymous, so all my stupidities will now be revealed…
      1. Thank you. This is the advantage of living in Oz, I can do the crossword while most people are still asleep and get on the board lol.
  4. 75 minutes, finishing in the tough SW with ASS and finally REINVENT, having finally tumbled to the unknown TIMBALE. Lots of deviously good stuff here, with my COD going to the beautifully clued REINVENT, with an honourable mention to COTERIE, an excellent anagram appearing to contain too many vowels to be a word.

    Similar head-scratching at 26, so thanks to Anon for clearing that up.

  5. DNF without resort to aids but got there eventually.

    I’d say this was a puzzle of two halves for me except the split was nearer 75/25 with all but 10 clues solved within 30 minutes including the whole of the top half, most of the SW and a couple in the SE. I then stared at the grid for the next 30 minutes without writing in a single answer before deciding to use aids to get myself started again. 20 minutes later the grid was complete but I needed still more time to sort out all the wordplay.

    To my shame I didn’t know MYANMAR and couldn’t work it out despite realising it was an anagram and having identified the grist correctly.

    I’m still not sure I understand how the definition works at 16dn. I didn’t know the necessary sporting references ‘no side’ (rugby) at 19ac and ‘HALVE’ (golf) at 24dn.

    26dn was ASS(ail) for me but I see now that ASS(ist) is a better fit.

    This was a good day for me not to be blogging. Congrats to George for rattling through it all so swiftly.

    Edited at 2012-04-26 06:28 am (UTC)

    1. Think Frankie Howerd: ‘Coin [ye] not!’ If you reinvent something, then necessarily you are not inventing (or ‘coining’ it).

      Edited at 2012-04-26 06:30 am (UTC)

      1. I did wonder about the “necessarily” qualifying “not” — perhaps because “coin” gets used mostly ironically:

        “to coin a phrase said ironically when introducing a banal remark or cliché: I had to find out the hard way — to coin a phrase” (NOAD).

      2. Thanks. I already went down that road but couldn’t get my head round it. It’s good to know that’s the way it’s supposed to work.
  6. That was a tough one! Leaving out a trip to the supermarket to return some ribs that my wife had bought but hadn’t realised were off, that took just under 2hrs. Thanks to everyone, including our esteemed blogger, for helping out with the queries I had on REINVENT, STAFFA and ASS. I, too, am puzzled by the doubling up of bras. LOI was REINVENT and COD among many excellent candidates was 19ac. Lastly, I saw on the TV news the other night that the USN has sent a goodly-sized contingent, including one of their huge aircraft carriers, to Fremantle to help celebrate the 70th anniversary of the Battle of the 15ac.
  7. I think the point here is that ‘underwear’ is a mass or non-count noun like ‘clothing’, and thus may be exemplified by two items, in this case, the setter’s favourite piece of lingerie.
  8. 30 minutes with TIMBALE as a tentative entry (it could have been TIMBILE but probably not TIMNOCE), ASS with pitch being almost anything, and REINVENT with both rein=lead and vent=pipe questioned. I assumed the definition was the full “Coin not necessarily found” and hoped for the best.
    The rest of this thing was a delight, I thought, full of those admirable narrative clues which make decent sense and enhance the game of hunt the definition.
    Slowed by having HITCH at 24 – hard breathing either haitch or h-aitch (according to taste) minus a one, and you can’t argue with the definition. It made the SE much harder to solve, but at least it was fair: the SW needed at least three acts of faith for me.
    CAESARS didn’t make me blink – they were the masters of the Classical world, after all, and I thought the grammar was within the bounds of normal crossword deviousness.
    Many candidates for CoD: DIESEL might well have made it in another puzzle, but UP AGAINST IT made me smile most.
    1. I didn’t understand vent = pipe either but I thought I’d moaned enough! Chambers has “a pipe-like volcanic vent” for “pipe”, but I doubt that was the intention.
  9. A very difficult puzzle so well done George on two counts, your time and your parsing.

    I filled the grid in just under 30 minutes but took at least another 10 to understand some of these. At the end of that I still don’t understand: 12A “supplement given by Classics masters” assuming the definition is “course”; the leading ABR in 3D assuming it’s ABR-A(C-ADA)BRA which is what the wording suggests – don’t buy the suggestions already given; the “coin not necessarily” at 16D despite the explanations already given.

    Well done setter and would welcome your explanation of the clues not generally understood

    1. George’s parsing of 3 seems good to me for reasons already given. At 12, ‘Caesar Salad’ is frequently on menus in these parts at any rate as a side dish, which would make it a ‘course supplement’.
      1. Sorry but “in her underwear” for me does not equate to BRA + BRA. BRA + SLIP say, yes.

        I don’t know where “these parts” are but am suspicious that you may not have eaten a Caesar Salad which is certainly a course in its own right and at lunch could constitute the whole meal.

          1. I was in HK circa 1985 and recall early morning roadside exercises, lunatic bus drivers, clacking tiles of that game they play all day, awful scented tea, superb fish but no Caesar salads!! Some useful comments from the setter now on blog if you haven’t seen them
  10. 20m for all but 16dn, and another ten minutes before giving up on it. Others seem to love the clue so I must just be in a grump but I’m not a fan. “Coin not necessarily” is just too oblique a definition for me. I don’t see how “rein” means “lead” either: missing something obvious no doubt.
    Presumably I’m being thick on 12ac too but I don’t understand it. Is the definition “course supplement”? In my experience a Caesar Salad is invariably a course in itself. And does “classics masters” clue “Caesars”? How does that work?
    Otherwise, lots of unknown stuff in here that resulted in many answers bunged in without full understanding. All in all a puzzle that made me feel very thick: not a very enjoyable experience!
    1. I’m familiar with lead rein as some kind of equine accoutrement, but will leave it to someone horsier than me to fill in the bits.
      1. There was a time when toddling babies used to wear reins which I suppose might have been thought of as leads. I haven’t seen these for decades so I assume they have been deemed harmful if not actually outlawed.
        1. Definitely not outlawed unless you rig them, horse like, across the toddlers mouth. Still an essential part of any grandfather’s weaponry in the fight to prevent the toddler running under the wheels of a trolleybus. In my experience, though, you barely lead. It’s mostly following along the Toddler’s preferred path. Toddler has miles more energy than grandfather.
        2. You still see these, and we used to have them for our kids. Very useful! This meaning is in Chambers too, but I don’t think they’re ever called leads. I can’t find anything to support rein = lead in the dictionaries I have access to.
  12. In response to Jimbo, to whom thanks for kind comments, and thanks also to George the blogger (I am taking “hooly dooly” to be a compliment!)
    But as always all comments, favourable and otherwise, are useful and appreciated.
    ABRACADABRA is indeed (C ADA in BRA BRA) all under A. In the world of the crossword clue I think it’s perfectly acceptable for someone to be “dressed” in two bras, cryptically if not literally. The “bra” is only appreciated by this setter as an item of underwear if the hackneyed “supporter” can be avoided, although that doesn’t always apply. If “supporter” fits a nice surface then so be it..
    In CAESAR’S SALAD the definition is indeed “course supplement” but I agree “course” would have done equally well if not better.
    REINVENT: “Rein” and “lead” are a loose equivalence I admit, but I think one can just about get away with it figuratively. (BTW my experience of reins and leads for children, dogs and horses is that there may be a fair degree of “pulling” and “being pulled” in any combination)
    I also agree that the definition for this clue could have been phrased better.
    I’m pleased George remembers Feargal Sharkey – a one-hit wonder as a solo artist but not of course but not with his Undertones colleagues.
    2. A difficult and ingenious puzzle, which seems to have challenged us all. Many thanks to setter for the puzzle and the gloss on it. He/she- are there any female setters? – will forgive me, I hope, if I say that I remain unconvinced by the explanation for the double BRA at 3 dn. I think some indicator of the doubling should have been offered in the clue – say, “Caught girl in her underwear, plus spare, under a bit of a spell?”. I also remain doubtful about REINVENT= “coin not necessarily” – in my book there are no circumstances in which coining is the same as reinventing. I think CAESAR’S SALAD just about gets away with it – it is usually, in my experience, eaten as a course in itself, but I’ve also seen it offered as a side-dish. Quibbles aside, an excellent puzzle. The quadruple def at 11 ac was indeed a “hooly dooly” (whatever that is) of a clue.
      1. ‘in my book there are no circumstances in which coining is the same as reinventing’ – but that’s exactly the point on which the clue is agreeing with you! Perhaps the mental insertion of a comma after ‘coin not’ would help to make it clearer that these two words are the key definitional part of the literal.
        1. Fair enough, but then what is the purpose of “necessarily”? I note that the setter concedes that “the definition for this clue could have been phrased better”.
          1. I confess to being surprised at the setter’s diffidence, both here and with the salad. As I wrote above, the function of ‘necessarily’ is, in my view – and presumably in the setter’s – to denote a logically binding situation, as it would be in a sentence such as ‘To be single is necessarily not to be married’. Okay, the word order in the clue is a bit Yoda-like, but that’s all grist to the crossword mill, I’d have thought. A really good definition, as George originally said, even if the lead and the pipe are borderline. But again, for me, borderline’s good enough.

            Edited at 2012-04-27 03:25 pm (UTC)

            1. I’m with you on the salad, and I understand the use of “necessarily” in the example sentence you give, it’s just that I don’t see how “necessarily” can be made to perform that function in the clue as phrased. It seems to me that the clue would have been better if it had simply read: “Coin not found in lead pipe”. But I suspect that this is one on which we shall have to agree to differ.
  13. 20 mins for me with reinvent holding me up the longest. Loved the quadruple definition in 11a and ooh indeed to 23a. Thanks to the anonymous setter and to George for sorting it all out.
  15. Squeaked in under the hour for this tricky puzzle. I found lots to like and a little to dislike here. I loved ‘leggy stripper’ and ‘woman left’ as definitions. 21 & 14a were both excellent clues. I didn’t like the quadruple-breasted girl at 3. There were a few other clues I wasn’t keen on at the time, but now that I fully understand them they seem OK – 12, 16 & 26. I’m definitely appreciating it more now that I’ve perused the blog.
    Much like Jack, I’m very glad it wasn’t my turn to write it. Well done George.
  16. tricky one today, not sure about ass/morass, but loved 17ac. almost worth the £1 for the paper alone.
  18. 24:41 .. with a good deal of checking and rechecking at the end. Very nice challenge.

    The one that I spent most time on post-solve was TO A DEGREE. Am I being dim or, if ‘on’=’RE’, doesn’t the wordplay lead to TO A DEGERE ? Or ER E TOADEG ? Is it in fact ‘touching’ that gives ‘RE’, and does that make sense? I don’t know. I’ve puzzled myself into submission.

    Oh, (and here I reveal yet more ignorance) what’s STAFFA got to do with ‘inch’?

    1. It’s better than that. INCH is specifically a Scots word for “island” and STAFFA is in the Hebrides. Very clever stuff.
    2. Yes I think “touching” gives RE. Chambers gives “concerning” for “touching”.
      STAFFA is an island. An inch is an island.
      1. Ah, thank you. I had forgotten the ‘inch as island’ definition, and the capitalization was throwing me.
  19. A steady solve for the most part but ended two short with Reinvent and Slogger missing.

    Edison from definition – hadn’t heard of the rugby term “no side.”

    Super mix of clues for the three-letter words – none of which I got immediately.

  20. can’t seem to use login details off an iPhone, the anonymous drop down menu doesnt do as it should.

    Can anyone elucidate the “no side” = end of game idea?
    I thought I knew rugby but dont get this!

    1. I didn’t know this either but Collins defines “no side” as “the end of a match signalled by the referee’s whistle”.
      1. And a phrase I only ever heard used by the late great Bill Maclaren as the BBC’s Grandstand rugby football (as he would say) commentator in the 60s and 70s
  21. DNF having put FEARSAL at 22, I could only think of SCOUSER or SPONSOR for 20, and thought neither likely, although was prepared to countenance the former as some kind of cyptic definition I didn’t get. I toughie but a goodie; I didn’t have any problems with the answers, just in getting them, or not.
  22. A toughie, today…

    Somehow managed all the sporting refs (SLOGGER, HALVE, EDISON), but came a cropper in top right, where I couldn’t get LAPLANDER or LOCUS.

    Also had a gap at REINVENT, where I couldn’t get away from trying to use ‘cent’ as the coin. You know the feeling, where you just KNOW it’s got to be that…

    Not too many unknowns here today: AWN, I think is the only bit, and somehow I’m not surprised when I find that it means: ‘Bristly appendage (of corn or grass)’ – not sure I’ll ever need that one again (except of course for the next time it crops up here). For me at least, very tricksy cryptics. Thanks, setter, blogger and all you guys for the interesting debate.

    Edited at 2012-04-26 01:40 pm (UTC)

  23. Inch (Inch Kenneth?) is a different island from Staffa, though close – does ‘inch away from’ therefore form part of the clue? can see the answer but don’t see how it is ‘correct’. Glad to see an anonymous come out. Will do so one day perhaps. Today easy except reinvent, ass and Staffa.
    1. Chambers: inch-2; Scots and Irish; an island (from the Gaelic innis an island)
  24. I found this somewhat difficult, about 45 minutes or so altogether. EDISON and SLOGGER went in on a wing and a prayer, as I had no idea about Twickenham or big batsmen. I also didn’t think that HALVE was necessarily limited to golf, but it possible that in the UK it refers to other sporting ties as well. LOI was REINVENT, where I don’t have any particular problem with either lead or pipe. COD to HOME BREW, or LOCUS. Thanks to the setter for dropping in to clarify, but the double BRA did need some added signal, I believe. Thanks to George too, and regards to everyone.
    1. “but the double BRA did need some added signal, I believe.”

      If you have one, two, for for that matter two hundred bras, that is “underwear” no? Can’t see the problem.

  25. DNF by a good margin, falling at about the halfway fence. Too tough for me on some of the cryptics but now I’ve seen the blog, the discussion and the setter’s view, I think that’s in just about every case a comment on me and not the puzzle. However remain unconvinced by the coin and reinvent link and could never have explained the cryptic for ASS though in fact I did eventually guess it simply from sap. Oh well a chastening experience that reminds me I still have much to learn in this devious world of crosswords!
  26. Many thanks to the setter for keeping me fully occupied when a delayed train caused me to miss my connection at Crewe.
  27. This is just plain wrong. The end of a rugby union match is NEVER refered to as ‘no side’. I’m a rugby ref of more than 30 years experience and am absolutely certain that the expression is not used in the game.
    1. I’ve heard it used: “The referee’s whistle goes for ‘no side'” said by Bill McClaren, in between outbreaks of “dancing in the streets of Galashiels” :-_
  28. Late in and stumbled through this excellent offering in 56 minutes. Congratulations setter, and to anyone who finished in under half an hour. And to sotira addtionally for the correct explanation of 29 and ‘touching’. A fascinating and satisfying blog as well. I’m tired.
  29. 11:24 for me. I seemed to be on the setter’s wavelength, with all but three clues solved in nicely under 10 minutes – however, at this point I came to a stand. I then amazed myself by getting TIMBALE from the definition (having eliminated TEMPURA), which confirmed ASS (though I still couldn’t see how the wordplay worked). And finally, after a minute-or-so’s agonising, since the definition didn’t seem right, I decided to take a chance with REINVENT.

    An excellent puzzle, full of invention. My compliments to the setter.

  30. Didn’t finish solving this til late last night so comment now only in the vague hope someone reads it one day: this is the best daily cryptic I have seen in a while, one of the two best this year.
    I am not a great fan of the “stretch-the-definition-til-it-almost-breaks” school of setting and as such disliked a couple of the clues (eg 16dn, my loi) but that is a personal thing. I had no difficulties with the underwear or the side dish.. top class stuff.
    Anyone who thinks you can’t do a hard crossword and still make everything clear should look at the techniques employed on the club monthly crosswords, which are usually technically 100%.
    1. Just to let you know somebody read it – and of course I totally agree about the Club Monthly. Great shame more people don’t do it.
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